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Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:51 pm

Some shots of what we did to the interior. Everywhere the black carpet is, we backed it with 1/4in of sound dampening pads. Even with the two big 383's running at 3k, you can still have a conversation in the house without raising your voice. While I was doing the interior, I had to redo a ton of the wiring on the boat to add electronics and windshield wipers, which took quite a while.

IMG_5615.JPG


We went with the Garmin 942xs and Garmin radar for our electronics. It works super well for our purposes. Last week, I installed two Fox Marine N2k gateways that translate tons of the engine data from the two 2004 Kodiak MEFI4 motors to the Garmin, including fuel burn, which is awesome. Knowing when our motors start showing changes to running temp or oil pressure is crucial for us keeping this thing tip top as a commercial operation, so having exact digital readouts vs the analogue gauges is great.

My current project is using a plasma table to cut a new dash. I picked up a 742xs to use for our gauges and will flush mount the VHF, 942 and 742 on the new dash in lieu of the analogue setup (I'm keeping the analogue fuel gague as backup). The boat also came with an amp and huge subwoofer and 9 speakers that had been ripped out and thrown in a box by the Nat Geo folks. Somehow, the amp and most of the speakers still work, and music sounds amazing in the house.

IMG_5772.JPG


Finally, here's a couple of shots of the project as it is now, and a shot of our PWeld in its working environment as well.

IMG_5771.JPG


IMG_5775.JPG


This winter, in addition to the dash, I'll be redesigning how the front doors seal (only had time to do makeshift seals for this season, and there was room for improvement), fixing a few oversights around the boat, and then focusing on going through the motors to get them tip top.

I learned a ton during this project, as did the welder/fabricator I worked with. The thing rides like a dream, and surprisingly isn't a whole lot thirstier than our PWeld with Yanmar diesels. Trim tabs make a HUGE difference with the ride quality in the stacked chop, so this winter I'll be adding tabs to the PWeld as well.

Future goals: I'd like to look into electric controls and hydraulic buckets. I know the hydraulic buckets are a big undertaking, but we love having them on our PWeld for correcting our trajectory and dodging ice in the river at high speeds. Our mechanical throttle/bucket controls we have on the white boat get the job done, but Livorsi controls on there would be great because the mechanical setup is jerky and imprecise as hell. If anybody has experience converting analogue controls to a 2004 Kodiak or similar, I'd be interested in hearing how it went.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:53 pm

Eagle1 wrote:Is that Glacier White on the paint color.


Not sure. It was an epoxy-based primer and paint combo that a boatyard had in stock here in town, so we jumped on it since it was already up here.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Eagle1 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:31 am

1. You could use a Bennett trim tab hyd. unit, add a small parker hyd. cylinder and add a switch to drive the unit.You could also use trim tab switches with the position location to know where reverse buckets are. Good Luck.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby bondobreath » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Awesome job on a major project ! Thanks for sharing it all ! :Drink:
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:57 pm

Eagle1 wrote:1. You could use a Bennett trim tab hyd. unit, add a small parker hyd. cylinder and add a switch to drive the unit.You could also use trim tab switches with the position location to know where reverse buckets are. Good Luck.



I've been researching the electric over hydraulic mods like this for the 212. My immediate question is if the buckets move quickly enough to be useful in a pinch. My second question is how you reliably know when you are in neutral bucket position. Even with the indicator lights, it doesn't seem like it would be easy to be sure you were in neutral. We do a ton of maneuvering in a busy harbor that is frequently very windy, and knowing bucket position is key to safely getting around.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby whee » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:24 pm

I’m sure it will be different for a twin but my boat has electric over hydraulic reverse. And it’s not a 212.

It’s about a 5 count from lock to lock on the bucket. I have no indicator of bucket position but it’s pretty obvious where the bucket is based on the boats response. The feel and just knowing where the bucket is based on how long you pushed the button came pretty fast for me. Low speed maneuvering is easier and faster than when I had dual lever controls. I love my electric/hydraulic reverse.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:59 pm

whee wrote:I’m sure it will be different for a twin but my boat has electric over hydraulic reverse. And it’s not a 212.

It’s about a 5 count from lock to lock on the bucket. I have no indicator of bucket position but it’s pretty obvious where the bucket is based on the boats response. The feel and just knowing where the bucket is based on how long you pushed the button came pretty fast for me. Low speed maneuvering is easier and faster than when I had dual lever controls. I love my electric/hydraulic reverse.



Thanks for the feedback. I’m super interested in this setup, but fuzzy on the details. Anybody have any experience with this setup on a twin? I’m a little nervous about dual electric switches controlling the buckets, but maybe I could use one of those Bennet controllers that has the memory positions for neutral and forward? Not sure how the position indicators would transfer to the cylinder, since I think that is a sensor that is built into the foot of the Benner hydraulic ram.

Also, is anyone still making a kit for this with the 212?
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Jaker » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:13 am

Amazing job on a huge project... Well done and congrats on the addition to your fleet!
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Riverjohn » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:14 am

AKriverandocean wrote:
whee wrote:I’m sure it will be different for a twin but my boat has electric over hydraulic reverse. And it’s not a 212.

It’s about a 5 count from lock to lock on the bucket. I have no indicator of bucket position but it’s pretty obvious where the bucket is based on the boats response. The feel and just knowing where the bucket is based on how long you pushed the button came pretty fast for me. Low speed maneuvering is easier and faster than when I had dual lever controls. I love my electric/hydraulic reverse.



Thanks for the feedback. I’m super interested in this setup, but fuzzy on the details. Anybody have any experience with this setup on a twin? I’m a little nervous about dual electric switches controlling the buckets, but maybe I could use one of those Bennet controllers that has the memory positions for neutral and forward? Not sure how the position indicators would transfer to the cylinder, since I think that is a sensor that is built into the foot of the Benner hydraulic ram.

Also, is anyone still making a kit for this with the 212?

I was trying to find the pictures of the P Weld one I had on my 212. (No luck yet) I picked up a 213 a few years back and switched it out. As far as use there are things I liked about the 212 vs the 213 hydraulic bucket. The biggest one was being able to move the bucket in finer increments. (Just tap the Electric switch) As far as speed goes it was plenty fast for some pretty quick moves that I had to make. (As in down a channel that all of the sudden ended around a corner) I still have everything that came off my 212. If it would help I can lay it out and get you some pictures? P Weld put a magnetic band reed switch that could be adjusted up or down on the cylinder to set Neutral with. There was a light on the dash that would come on when in Neutral. (Using relay's I am sure you could set up a way for it to home to Neutral when needed) My rocker switch was on my right with Stick Steer on the left. Ideally this switch or In your case switch's should be on the stick to make them more user friendly. FYI I am sure all the parts Tom used on these are still available. :Drink: :Drink:
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby whee » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:37 pm

Riverjohn wrote:I was trying to find the pictures of the P Weld one I had on my 212. (No luck yet) I picked up a 213 a few years back and switched it out. As far as use there are things I liked about the 212 vs the 213 hydraulic bucket. The biggest one was being able to move the bucket in finer increments. (Just tap the Electric switch) As far as speed goes it was plenty fast for some pretty quick moves that I had to make. (As in down a channel that all of the sudden ended around a corner) I still have everything that came off my 212. If it would help I can lay it out and get you some pictures? P Weld put a magnetic band reed switch that could be adjusted up or down on the cylinder to set Neutral with. There was a light on the dash that would come on when in Neutral. (Using relay's I am sure you could set up a way for it to home to Neutral when needed) My rocker switch was on my right with Stick Steer on the left. Ideally this switch or In your case switch's should be on the stick to make them more user friendly. FYI I am sure all the parts Tom used on these are still available. :Drink: :Drink:


I put my rocker switch on my stick which works great. I think a split rocker on the stick would be awesome for a twin.

There are a few options for electronic neutral indication which I think would be ideal. I magnetic sensor and indicator light being the simplest. An electronic linear indicator would work or you could adapt a outdrive trim gauge.

A ghetto solution would be to leave the reverse cable hooked up and attach the helm end to a slide indicator.

Also, a properly selected electric linear actuator could be used instead of an electric/hydraulic unit. That could simplify the system and provide a position indication since many actuators have that built in. I'd guess that some electric/hydraulic units have a built in position indication as well.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:05 pm

whee wrote:
Riverjohn wrote:I was trying to find the pictures of the P Weld one I had on my 212. (No luck yet) I picked up a 213 a few years back and switched it out. As far as use there are things I liked about the 212 vs the 213 hydraulic bucket. The biggest one was being able to move the bucket in finer increments. (Just tap the Electric switch) As far as speed goes it was plenty fast for some pretty quick moves that I had to make. (As in down a channel that all of the sudden ended around a corner) I still have everything that came off my 212. If it would help I can lay it out and get you some pictures? P Weld put a magnetic band reed switch that could be adjusted up or down on the cylinder to set Neutral with. There was a light on the dash that would come on when in Neutral. (Using relay's I am sure you could set up a way for it to home to Neutral when needed) My rocker switch was on my right with Stick Steer on the left. Ideally this switch or In your case switch's should be on the stick to make them more user friendly. FYI I am sure all the parts Tom used on these are still available. :Drink: :Drink:


I put my rocker switch on my stick which works great. I think a split rocker on the stick would be awesome for a twin.

There are a few options for electronic neutral indication which I think would be ideal. I magnetic sensor and indicator light being the simplest. An electronic linear indicator would work or you could adapt a outdrive trim gauge.

A ghetto solution would be to leave the reverse cable hooked up and attach the helm end to a slide indicator.

Also, a properly selected electric linear actuator could be used instead of an electric/hydraulic unit. That could simplify the system and provide a position indication since many actuators have that built in. I'd guess that some electric/hydraulic units have a built in position indication as well.


All good ideas. Riverjohn, if you have those photos I'd be really interested in knowing what the components are. I have a decent amount of room back there to weld in tabs or supports for a system, but narrowing the necessary components down to those that have already worked on vessels that have the system would be super useful and cut down on the research I need to do.

Whee, I really like the idea of an electric actuator, but I'll have to research how fast they extend these days. The one's I've seen are pretty slow, but I know they're always getting better. It would make all of this much simpler, and it would be easier to repair.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

EDIT ** Just looked at some videos of fast electric actuators. Those would do just fine. Anyone know roughly what force would be needed to move the buckets adequately?
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Eagle1 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:58 pm

Easy if not under power. Full power stop will take a bigger unit. Remember you are closing off a 4.5 hose. There are lots of units on the market. More money = better unit. Good Luck
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Riverjohn » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:36 am

AKriverandocean wrote:
whee wrote:
Riverjohn wrote:I was trying to find the pictures of the P Weld one I had on my 212. (No luck yet) I picked up a 213 a few years back and switched it out. As far as use there are things I liked about the 212 vs the 213 hydraulic bucket. The biggest one was being able to move the bucket in finer increments. (Just tap the Electric switch) As far as speed goes it was plenty fast for some pretty quick moves that I had to make. (As in down a channel that all of the sudden ended around a corner) I still have everything that came off my 212. If it would help I can lay it out and get you some pictures? P Weld put a magnetic band reed switch that could be adjusted up or down on the cylinder to set Neutral with. There was a light on the dash that would come on when in Neutral. (Using relay's I am sure you could set up a way for it to home to Neutral when needed) My rocker switch was on my right with Stick Steer on the left. Ideally this switch or In your case switch's should be on the stick to make them more user friendly. FYI I am sure all the parts Tom used on these are still available. :Drink: :Drink:


I put my rocker switch on my stick which works great. I think a split rocker on the stick would be awesome for a twin.

There are a few options for electronic neutral indication which I think would be ideal. I magnetic sensor and indicator light being the simplest. An electronic linear indicator would work or you could adapt a outdrive trim gauge.

A ghetto solution would be to leave the reverse cable hooked up and attach the helm end to a slide indicator.

Also, a properly selected electric linear actuator could be used instead of an electric/hydraulic unit. That could simplify the system and provide a position indication since many actuators have that built in. I'd guess that some electric/hydraulic units have a built in position indication as well.


All good ideas. Riverjohn, if you have those photos I'd be really interested in knowing what the components are. I have a decent amount of room back there to weld in tabs or supports for a system, but narrowing the necessary components down to those that have already worked on vessels that have the system would be super useful and cut down on the research I need to do.

Whee, I really like the idea of an electric actuator, but I'll have to research how fast they extend these days. The one's I've seen are pretty slow, but I know they're always getting better. It would make all of this much simpler, and it would be easier to repair.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

EDIT ** Just looked at some videos of fast electric actuators. Those would do just fine. Anyone know roughly what force would be needed to move the buckets adequately?
I will get some pics today of it. These pumps are good for at least 1000 psi. The Hyd. cylinders they use are Air cylinders with a hydraulic rating of around 4 or 500 psi. I remember one of the pumps pressure relief being set wrong and it blowing out the cylinder once on one. You could use a JIC Hyd. Cylinder to get more pressure to close the bucket under high RPM. Mine worked fine at 3000. Think about how you would use it if you put the switch's on the stick. You have total control of the throttle with one hand and the switch's with the other. :Drink: :Drink:
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:34 pm

Here's another hydraulic reverse question. I'm in the research weeds on this one. I just contacted Riddle about their kit and it looks great, but is still controlled by a rocker switch, which I'm not sure of on a twin because of the uncertainty of bucket position of both jets at startup. I can see a scenario where I don't know where one of the buckets is positioned while maneuvering in the harbor or river at low speeds.

My boat with the 213's has what I guess you would call a proportional controller for the bucket position. Basically, I move the livorsi control to a certain position and the hydraulic bucket moves there. I guess I'm envisioning a system where the mechanical cable from the helm proportionately sets the bucket position through the hydraulic piston. So, set the lever full forward (even when boat is off) and when the system is powered, the bucket moves fully open. Following, if both levers were set to neutral, the buckets would position themselves neutral. Seems like this system exists, I'm just having trouble figuring out a retrofit for the 212's.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Eagle1 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:24 pm

One or two hyd. units, two rocker switches and done. You can hear units bottom out on down travel. You might do twin hyd. units as you need to turn on unit and move bucket at same time. You can add a travel limit switch readout on conn like a redlion to give you numbers. The numbers can be 10, 20 30 percent or 0-10. You can program it to say anything. Your 213 has a bypass so no heating up fuild when it full forward. The pump also has heat exchanger cooling as part of pump.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:36 pm

Eagle1 wrote:One or two hyd. units, two rocker switches and done. You can hear units bottom out on down travel. You might do twin hyd. units as you need to turn on unit and move bucket at same time. You can add a travel limit switch readout on conn like a redlion to give you numbers. The numbers can be 10, 20 30 percent or 0-10. You can program it to say anything. Your 213 has a bypass so no heating up fuild when it full forward. The pump also has heat exchanger cooling as part of pump.


Okay, so I can go two hydraulic units and two simple magnetic reed switches to indicate neutral on the bucket controller with dash lights. This looks like the most likely route. Riddle Marine has a nice bracket that bolts directly into the 212, so I won't have to reinvent the wheel with that one.

Any thoughts about using Bennet Bolt electric actuators instead? With those, I could program in the neutral position and return to that position on both jets with the push of a button, they already have piston position indicators, and repair/replacement as well as the install would be much simpler and cheaper. I don't think anybody on here has used electric actuators for 212's yet, but it seems like these would be suitable and like they have come a long way in the last 10 years. They're waterproof, and have 750lb of force in both directions.

I don't know yet what the actuator speed is for these, and I also don't know how much travel is needed for the bucket control. The Bennet's have 2.5 inches of travel — is that enough?

All of the expertise on here is very helpful — thanks y'all!
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby Riverjohn » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:27 pm

Did Riddle give you any specs on their system? Cylinder bore and stroke. Hyd. PSI? If you know that you can figure out how much force you need.
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby falling rock 2 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:03 am

P weld ocean bow? What a joke,man is only good as his word,take the money and run bow,slices chop like hot knife through ass
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby AKriverandocean » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:53 pm

falling rock 2 wrote:P weld ocean bow? What a joke,man is only good as his word,take the money and run bow,slices chop like hot knife through ass


Haha, yeah, it has been an interesting journey with the P Weld, for sure. So much for a lifetime hull warranty! There's a lot of things we really like about the P Weld though, and with our hull support rebuild, I think we've taken care of a lot of the issues, so hopefully we can use it without worry and just enjoy it from here on out. It's interesting to see that Armor is reinforcing the new hulls very differently — what they are doing seems to be very similar to how we rebuilt our hull.

I'm currently installing beefy trim tabs on the P Weld, and I have a feeling that will greatly improve the ride and the bow's ability to tolerably push through wave chop at a speed faster than a crawl. We think that one of the biggest issues with the stacked chop was that the bow would drop right onto the next wave at the same angle as the wave face, so it was like hitting a wall. The trim tabs should change the impact angle, reduce the drop distance, and (we hope) diffuse the impact significantly. On the Custom Weld, having the tabs down is night and day. 14kts jarring cruise with them up, 25kts comfortably with them down.


Falling Rock 2, did your tuna chaser have the same issues? I was following the final build of your boat out of curiosity. We had requested trim tabs on our P Weld during the initial build process, but we were talked out of it : )
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Re: Custom Weld Twin Nat Geo Boat Rebuild

Postby falling rock 2 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:52 am

Twin diesel yanmars second helm gps,paint windows wiring,fuel tank,seats controlls ect,is what i got screwed on.The 15 degree deadrise works good and the structure is solid,built to us coast guard passenger specs,thank god,that worked out.Shawn saved me,some of these clowns wanted to catch me for a 100.000 to finish the build,I have seen the structure the new p weld builders are doing,think bentz will change there formula and follow i think not,maybe we can get tom on here to discuss the 36 degree bow entry? Or is it 15 degree constant/?
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